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Post by ragnvaldr on Nov 17, 2009 0:02:56 GMT -5
Yah, i can agree with you on man kind partly making wrong decisions but that leaves out the good ones like:
Peace Corp Red Cross Our help in Africa People promoting the act of help -doctors -volunteers -donators -the list goes on
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Post by Gamov on Nov 17, 2009 0:18:09 GMT -5
Those are good examples of altruistic decisions humans have made. However, even those ideas are not free of corruption or ridiculous loopholes that prevent them from being 100% effective.
As a species, we have made our fair share of both good and bad choices, but the bad choices were all made of free will at the moment when another option was clearly open for investigation. You mention the help in Africa. some times it works, most often, though, it fails due to UN charters that prevent a military superpower (i.e. - America) from simply steamrolling the country flat and ousting the militant dictators in control of everything. Seems like a rather backwards and contradictory stance to take if you ask me. Sure, we'll deliver the food and medical supplies under escort of armed guards and a military convoy, but when the local militia show up and start beating the crap out of you until you hand it over, we can't do jack there, sorry.
All of our major choices made with regards to the well being of another people have been made using backwards logic that inevitably breeds hate, pessimism, discontent, and eventually a rebellion or two. Why is that? Because all of our decisions with regards to others are seldom made on the basis that we will help them until they can get things turned around. More often than not, it turns into a bid for control because we see chaos as a sign of instability, and we have been so indoctrinated to the point where anything that threatens the nice little boxes our religion and governments have created for us is viewed as an immediate threat and must be either -
A) Destroyed
or-
B) Controlled
That is the meaning of human existence. To evolve to control.
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Post by ragnvaldr on Nov 17, 2009 0:33:13 GMT -5
wow, ive never heard someone put it so plainly, but i guess it works....i mean the whole control part fits yesterdays history but what about now? i still dont get your answers to that question.
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Post by Nadius Hazor on Nov 17, 2009 11:03:32 GMT -5
Ideals like marxism and democracy aren't full of loopholes, it's the people who are. If we could throw greed and corruption aside these plans would work. Life would be pretty boring, but they'd work. The only problem with established government is that no matter what you call it, it's still anarchy. No matter what rules you try and impose to make invisible lines around us, primal instinct can cause us to neglect and ignore them. Look at that guy who shot up virginia tech? That wasn't a very democratic decision... Those people didn't vote on who died and who didn't, it was anarchy at it's most chaotic core. Everything IS anarchy - and the rules are put in place to distract people from believing that they can do whatever they want.
And you know what? In a lot of cases, anarchy works. If I have a gun and you have a gun, we can agree not to shoot each other and work together. That's what the Soviets and Americans decided during the cold war. Democracy and Communism differ greatly, but the desire to live existed in both countries and so peace agreements were made. Through Anarchy. No other system can accomplish that.
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Post by MikDaTv on Nov 17, 2009 12:26:44 GMT -5
And you know what? In a lot of cases, anarchy works. If I have a gun and you have a gun, we can agree not to shoot each other and work together. That's what the Soviets and Americans decided during the cold war. Democracy and Communism differ greatly, but the desire to live existed in both countries and so peace agreements were made. Through Anarchy. No other system can accomplish that. Under no circumstances is that what happened between the USSR and the United States. The USSR failed, completely. It's economy was in shambles and it could not longer afford to keep up its arms race, let alone feed it's people. There was a cue and the government was replaced. We won, they lost. Now, as for your statement that everything is anarchy and governments are only an illusion. Laws are not just "invisible lines" to box people in because they are enforced. If they were truly invisible lines, there would be no police or jails. A government only has as much authority as the people it governs allows it to have. Using the US as an example, that authority has been growing quite significantly since the it's birth. Anarchy is a system where no government is given authority over anyone but retained by each individual. It is for that very reason that there will never be anarchy. People will always band together into communities and bestow authority to a leader or leaders. It is our defining characteristic as human beings. as for jails filling up, thats probably because the world is filling up. I would hypothesize that the percentage of criminals has changed very little over the coarse of history but there are simply more people now, ergo, more criminals. Now, to Elifains comment about how we are not yet mature... who decides? Who out there makes the decision that we as a species have matured? If there were no war, no crime... essentially no risk, then life would be boring. War and crime are terrible things but you need to use some dark colors to make masterpiece art. To point out a fact. In the united states violent crime rates have dropped a little under 20% over the last 15 or so years. However the reporting of these violent crimes by the media has risen drastically. As for this discussion about governments. A government is controlled by culture, not the other way around. Politicians will do and say whatever is considered cool/right by it's constituent peoples in order to get elected. A government is always at it's best when it first begins. Again, using the US as an example, it started out as a strait up representative democracy with a ton of power delegated to the people. The people however have gradually over the years decided to give more power to the government in order to make things "equal" as in making the rich people poorer and the poor people richer. So, what started out as everyone being granted equal in power over their ruling body no matter how rich or power, things have shifted towards everyone being equally powerless but with the inception of a middle class and a huge bureaucracy.
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Post by Gamov on Nov 17, 2009 14:41:07 GMT -5
wow, ive never heard someone put it so plainly, but i guess it works....i mean the whole control part fits yesterdays history but what about now? i still dont get your answers to that question. What about now? Now is no different than it was a few centuries, or even decades ago. The only difference between now and then are the tools we use and the terminology we are accustomed to using for describing it. Going to what Mik says, and I agree 110% with this (as I do with the rest of what he says in his post), people will always seek to come together in a community of some sort an appoint a leader. It is just our nature, has been since the earliest days of our species. We've always been tribal since we discovered that there is safety in numbers. Our "tribes" are just the sizes of countries now instead of small villages. And so long as this framework for human interaction continues to exist and influence our lives, there will always be those who seek to be the appointed leader of the "tribe" (i.e. - President, Prime Minister, Dictator, et all.) And to speak now to Hazor's points. I equally agree that the ideas of government are solid on paper, but its people that make them fail. However, keep in mind that the same fallible minds that run these political systems were (in several cases) the same ones that conceived them. Any idea that comes from the mind of man is bound to be designed with flaws that benefit a very specific group over another. Even anarchy is guilty of this short coming. It is the one, undeniable, unavoidable and perpetually recurring truth through out the current (and future) history of human existence that we seek power and control. It only matters how we label it that tends to make the system appear different, when, in actuality, control is control no matter how you slice it.
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Post by Zilfer Of Shadows... on Nov 17, 2009 14:49:43 GMT -5
Word. to Gamov and Mik. Except on one point. " Criminals are out numbered by law abiding citizens? I ask how much crime in the world do you think goes uncaught? I can tell you probably over 70% of people in the united states have broken the law. A simple example would be copy right laws, of music. On another note, just because they are law abiding citizens doesn't mean they aren't corrupt, or look down on people. Shit, you probably can't go anywhere in the world without finding harassment in some form or another. which I think is what Elifain was tryin to say. *shrugs* meh
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Post by Darth Hades on Nov 17, 2009 15:47:51 GMT -5
Gamov and Mik that was great and Z is right as well with the crime as was Elifain. Anyway it is not only the human species that band together, it seems that every living thing depends on other living things. It seems like a quality that we as a planet share. same goes with leaders for animals we label them Alpha Males or females as some cases are lol Also with Ideals like marxism and democracy aren't full of loopholes, it's the people who are. If we could throw greed and corruption aside these plans would work. I believe as Gamov was saying that though it looks good on paper, add the human element and it crumbles or as least imperfect. Why is it impefect it is because we are imperfect. Everything we make is impefect because we are and that's how life goes. We can't take away the greed, the corruption, the flaws because its part of the human element. So is Kindness, compassion and love. There is good in us and there is bad in us. For those that believe in a god I believe I can say this, not gonna say I'm right but I think it is a small glimpse of understanding his divine power. 1st We depend on God as we depend on others. This makes sense because we are impefect and so we need him. 2nd this might seem like it contradict what I said earlier that We are imperfect and so all that we make is impefect. God is perfect yet he make us imperfect. Unlike us we try to make thing perfect but God make us impefect on purpose. Why God did that depends on what religion you are part of. And so you know God did indeed made us perfect (Perfect in body), with Adam and Eve. It is when Satan tempted them and ate the forbidden fruit that we gained our flaws also the sense of right and wrong. Adam and Eve ate them because they were like little children and so they partaked it. About the Adam and Eve part depends on what religion you are part of. Now not saying this correct but from what I learned from my church and what I think I paid attention to was that was what they were telling me. My opionions so don't yell at me for the religion part
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Post by MikDaTv on Nov 17, 2009 15:50:49 GMT -5
Criminals are out numbered by law abiding citizens? I ask how much crime in the world do you think goes uncaught? I can tell you probably over 70% of people in the united states have broken the law. A simple example would be copy right laws, of music. On another note, just because they are law abiding citizens doesn't mean they aren't corrupt, or look down on people. Shit, you probably can't go anywhere in the world without finding harassment in some form or another. which I think is what Elifain was tryin to say. Well there's nothing wrong with looking down on other people. Just because you have a disagreeable personality doesn't make you an evil person. you could be the most condescending person in the world, that doesn't make you a bad human being. it just makes you an ass hole. But i take your point so let me revise my statement. Non-criminals outnumber criminals but a very significant amount. Just because someone jay walks doesn't make them a criminal. there are everyday people who are just lazy and decide to cross in the middle of the street rather than at the corner. and then there are truly evil people like Mad Dog Tannon who kill innocent scientists from the future over a matter of 80 dollars.
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Post by Darth Hades on Nov 17, 2009 15:58:08 GMT -5
The law is the law Mik lol. I get what your saying but even its a driving ticket or going twenty on a parking lot, it doesn't excuse them from breaking the law. though I jay walk lol but yes Mik I agree with you that there are more law abidng citizens then non. I think we all agree with you on that, we're saying that more non are growing rapidly I mean look at LA. Scary scary place.
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Post by Zilfer Of Shadows... on Nov 17, 2009 17:24:08 GMT -5
The definition of a Criminal remains the same. If you have comited a crime you are indeed a criminal, we may all be 'petty criminals' but criminals none the same. It is well understood that anyone who breaks the law is a criminal.
As for not being an evil person and only being an ass hole, I'd say it's Evil because Evil differs from person to person. If we for example apply it to your views on the force being an asshole is not keeping oneself in balance is thus the path to the darkside which is evil.
Or we could go off in another direction with Hamlet. 'Nothing is good or bad, but thinking makes it so.'
Which would mean no one is evil and thus criminals would be non existence. There's too much to personal preference when it comes to things like labeling evil, wrong, ect.
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Post by ragnvaldr on Nov 17, 2009 18:21:48 GMT -5
WOW, i never expected to get such a response out of this.....
Well, anyways, I'd have to agree with Mik on this one since Anarchy can be a perfect governmental form.....if used properly.
Also, to bring up another factoid for you people, have you noticed that the USA has started to actually negotiate with the other nations around the world specificly Russia and China?
And, also, maturity can be seen in multiple ways, it just depends on what you choose and not choose to see. For example, scientists from all over the world have combound their knowledge into whats being called the LHC which if successful could reveal the answers to going at light speed, infinite energy, and existence itself. It would also deconstruct all religions but, thats besides the point. Man kind in many ways has thrown down its arms in the last millennium and decided to join together. So, in the words above, you could say maturity is seen very clearly.
Oh, and everything else Mik said above, I'm sorry guys, but hes right....^.^
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Post by Zilfer Of Shadows... on Nov 17, 2009 19:08:21 GMT -5
Mik said ANARCHY WOULDN'T WORK. Valdr. >.> We've also in the last century found many new ways to kill people as well valdr. I don't think we'll be seeing us pass TOO much knowledge to North Korean scientists.
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Post by MikDaTv on Nov 17, 2009 20:23:59 GMT -5
And, also, maturity can be seen in multiple ways, it just depends on what you choose and not choose to see. For example, scientists from all over the world have combound their knowledge into whats being called the LHC which if successful could reveal the answers to going at light speed, infinite energy, and existence itself. It would also deconstruct all religions but, thats besides the point. so this particle accelerator is going to all the secrets of the universe eh? to bad for the boys at Firmilab and Berkeley.
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Post by Yuki Uramachi on Nov 17, 2009 22:01:22 GMT -5
The reason we are made to exist is beyond anyone's comprehension, but everyone is made for a reason right, or so I'm told?
My personal opinion on why we choose to exist is the people we surround our selves with, yes friends and family are said that they don't make you who you are, but they influence who you will be and what you choose to do. If you surround yourself with people who are good influences you are more likely to make the right decisions, and the same for the opposite. Well if your friends and family make you sad, or don't like you then you will be sad and not like yourself, and you will be more likely to commit suicide. Also goals and wants and wishes are important to our existence.
I have to say that singing/ my goal to be a singer, and Zilfer, my boyfriend are my reasons for my existence.
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