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Post by Cain on Feb 22, 2010 12:21:07 GMT -5
the system is not responsible for bad posts. the stats are there, the rules are in place but if we choose not to enforce them then we get what we deserve when people do overpowered shit. The rules were also part of the problem. Do not misunderstand. Neither of those two examples I gave were in any way in violation of the rules according to our previous system. But that's entirely the point. I mean, we have this no god modding rule, but no one seems to care about it until someone feels something unfair is being done to them. I've never seen admin pop into a thread and say "yo, cool it with the force because your bordering on god modding." You want people to stop being overpowered with their powers. A new "stat" system where the stats don't mean anything isn't going to fix the problems. In fact its going to be just like the pre stat system days when all of 6 people posted. You want to fix overpoweredness, then the admins need to get involved and draw a line somewhere on what is acceptable and what isn't. i know that might be tough given that one of the biggest god modders out there is an admin (i'm looking at you there Zilfer) but i'm pretty sure yall can think of something. We had that no god modding rule but it actually didn't mean a whole heck of a lot. I'm sure you're aware of the way we do things; I post you dying. You go back into my post and change it. I go back into your post and change your change. All of that is god modding. The rules of this forum made that kind of god modding legal. What Zilfer posted on Korriban is 100% within the boundaries of the rules (specifically the "right to defend" rule). What all of us did on Nar Shaddaa also is within the rules. But I'm sure that everyone in that topic could see that the rules were not serving the RP, they were only causing arguments and bitterness. That wasn't a failure of the staff, it was a failure of the system. also, i'd like to point out something that i've noticed. When Elifain destroyed my asteroid base for the union in a single post, i was told to get over it. Yet when Cain's base on Korriban is destroyed in a single post, we get a whole new site with a new system to boot. This is assuming that the post on Korriban is the sole reason for the new site. It is not. I could also have cited that thread where the asteroid was destroyed as a failure of the rules, I only chose those two because they were fairly recent and I was more familiar with them. I'm sure I could find other instances of the system crapping on people if you really wanted to see them, but somehow I don't think that will convince you anyway. Believe me when I say this decision was not one I made on a whim or because I was pissed off at someone. It's something I thought about for a long time. Something I consulted a lot of people about and put a good deal of time into. People were unhappy with the system. Several complaints were raised, you can even see evidence of that right here in the new ideas board. I promised I'd fix things, this is the solution I've come up with. I'm sure those are only the big ones to you because one they were against you and two because it was Zilfer. Ouch... if I'm to understand this correctly, essentially you're implying that I'm a self centered ass hole who is only concerned with whats good for himself and for some reason has a vendetta against Zilfer. As I said to mik, those two were only used because they're recent and I'm familiar with them. Zilfer really has nothing to do with it, I have no ill will towards him, in fact I've talked with Zilfer at great lengths about this new idea to get his feed back before I went ahead with it. I like the system we have, and I do not want to have to adjust to a whole new system again. Frankly Cain, I don't think you will EVER find your perfect system where everything runs smoothly because it doesn't exist one, and two because there will always be someone that finds loopholes or just frankly doesn't go by the rules. If you keep changing the system so much I think that sooner or later it will either be too strict a place or too lenient. I understand your concern here and believe me when I tell you that I weighed every possible option that would not include a system change before going with what I decided on. But there are problems with the old system and no, you did not like the system we had. Case in point: Also Cain I would like to point out that you are no stranger to god modding yourself. And so has Mik (getting past several missiles on chinine without much of a scratch). Yes, we all are. That's the problem here. If you've deluded yourself to think that what Cain did on Nar Shaddaa is god modding and what Zilfer did on Korriban is not then really you should stop reading this now cause logic isn't going to help you. But if you can concede that we all are guilty of this then you can understand. The way we role play here is not normal, its fraught with god modding that only surfaces when characters are forced to confront one another. See what I said to mik about changing other people's posts. You might think we can't fix that. I think we can. I don't think I'd be doing my job if I didn't try constantly to improve the quality of this forum. But a new stat system isn't going to stop someones freewill to god mod, people will still do it, and people will still try to be uber noobs and they will use things they cant use because they assume they can because they just say they had it in their bio. We don't need a new stat sytem, no matter what Kyllian feels, he hasn't been here long and his only complaint is that it is "too easy for him to say that he did an over powerful move when hew shouldn't be able to" which again a new system wont change his freewill to say he did something he can't, but an admin can A new stat system alone will not. But luckily the stats are not the only thing to have changed. A large source of the problem, which I'm not sure that you're aware of, is the "right to defend" rule. That rule is as much at fault as the stats are. That rule and our massive experience levels are the BHOD's licenses to god mod. I think what SHOULD be done is a more active role and possibly punishments if someone doesn't follow the rules even after they have been warned. I have yet to see that take place here. Again you misunderstand. Nothing that was done in any of those topics is against the rules. There is nothing to punish. In fact, when I suggested that what happened on Korriban might be god modding you and most of the other Mandalorians threw a shit fit, pointing to that rule I've mentioned about three times now as justification. Punish people? It's not as easy as all that. You all seem to think that I'm only out to appease myself, so what happens when I try and moderate something? Well you know what happens cause you've experienced it. I recognize that there is something wrong here. That it is not the Mandalorians cheating, it's not mik cheating, it's not Cain cheating, no one is cheating. They followed the rules. The problem is the rules. The stats are also a problem. The stats are vague. One of the first complaints I received was about Agility and the Force. Agility should determine reaction time. True. The Force can supersede that though. Also true. When you think about it though the Force can supersede just about any stat, which creates problems when pretty much everyone uses the Force to the extent that Yoda could only wet dream about. The stats themselves are also permission to god mod. That actually is much the point of stats in the way we used them, you earn the XP and you earn the right to lord your power over new members. In the old stat system this went to Caligulaic levels of excess. The new system was a vast improvement and did a lot to water down that excess. But it was still there, it just took longer to surface. I will gladly take blame for the failure of my ideas to work effectively and I don't blame anyone who is skeptical of this new idea, thinking that it like the others will inevitably fall short and be tossed aside. I can't force anyone to agree with me. Hopefully you can understand what I'm trying to do. If you still think I'm only doing all this for myself, so be it. No hard feelings.
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Post by bruinfamer on Feb 22, 2010 12:41:23 GMT -5
Cain, you have to admit, everyone will god mod when they are facing NPC's. They want to follow their own story. Obviously if we see someone running around from planet to planet killing off entire civilizations, we'll do something about it. I think one of the biggest things we as Admins need to do is watch threads closely, whether it be a "neutral" with no fighting, fights against NPC's, or even fights between players.
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Post by Cain on Feb 22, 2010 12:50:43 GMT -5
Who said anything about NPC's?
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Post by MikDaTv on Feb 22, 2010 12:59:04 GMT -5
they were not in violation of the rules acording to your interpritation. That by no means says that with a few quick mods and some grammar, the rules can prohibit these kinds of things. If you want someone to be a supreme justice as far as our rules are concerned then I volunteer. I can assure you no one will god mod ever again. Except for me... Because I am a god.
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Post by Cain on Feb 22, 2010 13:03:25 GMT -5
they were not in violation of the rules acording to your interpritation. That by no means says that with a few quick mods and some grammar, the rules can prohibit these kinds of things. If you want someone to be a supreme justice as far as our rules are concerned then I volunteer. I can assure you no one will god mod ever again. Except for me... Because I am a god. I have changed the rules already on the other forum and hopefully fixed the problem.
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Post by Moonfire on Feb 22, 2010 17:38:30 GMT -5
Well, I had decided to stay quiet for this topic, but what the hell, I might as well throw my two cents in... I can assure you all (as much as it might help) that Matt isn't doing these changes to be a dick or to be selfish or whatever. If you think that, you're either a deluded moron, or don't know him very well. Take your pick. None of these changes were made lightly or on a whim of any sort. Hes consulted and asked for the opinions of many, researched other Star Wars RP's and spent many a night trying to develop a system that would work. Hell, what hes doing now, in my opinion proves his motives. Hes getting your opinions, hes listening to what you have to say and answering your questions and explaining his thought process. If he really was this asshole some of you make him out to be he'd just apply the new system and tell ya'll to get over it or leave. But, I guess thats all beside the point. The issue is god-modding here. You want an example that doesn't involve Cain? Heres one featuring yours truly; ezekielrage.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=courscant&action=display&thread=4835&page=6In the fight between me and DS, we both god-modded. She cut off my hand, and through the right to defend rule, I proclaimed it never happened and went to remove her hand. This went on virtually back and forth until finally I messaged DS and made an agreement that she'd lose. I don't know about you guys, but that doesn't seem normal to me. But yet, it was right there in the rules, allowing me to do it, allowing DS to do it. This was normal under the old system, and personally I don't agree with it, and I hope that in order to win a battle or keep a character I never have to do it again. So far, I have never seen a system that will completely stop against god-modding, but with the new profiles and the new way of doing the stats we can try to crack down it a little more. No system will ever be perfect, and I can understand being wary about trying something new, but I don't see anyone here, other than Mik, giving any ideas.
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Post by Zilfer Of Shadows... on Feb 22, 2010 18:10:03 GMT -5
I dont think there is a way to crack down other then admins actively saying what can and can't be done while the people RP in the boards. Not the initial profiles. Anyone could go through it and still god mod throughout the RP.
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Post by DarkSaber on Feb 22, 2010 18:13:34 GMT -5
I can assure you all (as much as it might help) that Matt isn't doing these changes to be a dick or to be selfish or whatever. If you think that, you're either a deluded moron, or don't know him very well. Take your pick. None of these changes were made lightly or on a whim of any sort. Hes consulted and asked for the opinions of many, researched other Star Wars RP's and spent many a night trying to develop a system that would work. Hell, what hes doing now, in my opinion proves his motives. Hes getting your opinions, hes listening to what you have to say and answering your questions and explaining his thought process. If he really was this asshole some of you make him out to be he'd just apply the new system and tell ya'll to get over it or leave. But, I guess thats all beside the point. The issue is god-modding here. You want an example that doesn't involve Cain? Heres one featuring yours truly; ezekielrage.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=courscant&action=display&thread=4835&page=6In the fight between me and DS, we both god-modded. She cut off my hand, and through the right to defend rule, I proclaimed it never happened and went to remove her hand. This went on virtually back and forth until finally I messaged DS and made an agreement that she'd lose. I don't know about you guys, but that doesn't seem normal to me. But yet, it was right there in the rules, allowing me to do it, allowing DS to do it. This was normal under the old system, and personally I don't agree with it, and I hope that in order to win a battle or keep a character I never have to do it again. So far, I have never seen a system that will completely stop against god-modding, but with the new profiles and the new way of doing the stats we can try to crack down it a little more. No system will ever be perfect, and I can understand being wary about trying something new, but I don't see anyone here, other than Mik, giving any ideas. Now Mooney does have a good point in the example between the battle she and I did. Because after she threw my character Ashley off the roof she survived when she was suppose to die (although Mooney and I worked something out to where she didn't have to die btw thanks for that Mooney ;D.) No matter how hard you guys try and maintain as little godmod as possible someone is always going to to godmod no matter what because they don't want their character to die or some kind of shit they want to prevent from happening. There is always going to be someone who is going to do something to get on someone's damn nerves.
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Post by Zilfer Of Shadows... on Feb 22, 2010 18:37:11 GMT -5
^I think that is my point? XD Anyways back to workin on a profile.
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Post by Drake on Feb 22, 2010 18:41:39 GMT -5
Okay so this may be off topic some since everyone is arguing back and forth about God Modding and shit, but this one is about our bios in general and how they affect our stats in the new system.
Now it maybe just my fried logic talking but something just don't sit right with me when it comes to them. I understand the whole training decides how good you are in things, but what about just general age and experience as well. I'm not sure if this has been worked out or not yet, so if it has forgive me for not knowing better, but going by the new bio shouldn't the older your character is the stronger they should be in somethings too?
Not saying physically stronger or more agile cause lets face it a 65 year old is not going to be as agile or strong as a 20 something year old, but when it comes to things like using the force or intellegence someone like Jor who is lets face it an old man (sorry Mik) would be more worldly and experienced and thus have more points suited to him in areas that match that then someone like Drake who is only 25 and is relatively still learning things?
Just a random thought I had, umm well yeah as for the site I could care either way, so I'll let you guys get back to arguing now.
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Post by Cain on Feb 22, 2010 20:56:56 GMT -5
I agree with you 100% Drake. I've told both Moonfire and Gamov that they are to be essentially "logic police". When they look at profiles there should be consideration towards age when it comes to the amount of skills a character has, the length of their bio, and even their knowledge of the Force. But not just age; species, height and weight, all these things can effect your character and there should be some consideration towards them as well.
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Post by MikDaTv on Feb 22, 2010 21:09:15 GMT -5
I dont think there is a way to crack down other then admins actively saying what can and can't be done while the people RP in the boards. Not the initial profiles. Anyone could go through it and still god mod throughout the RP. this is what i'm saying. you can say "no god modding" to me, that would include using the force to rip apart a ship in orbit, or defending multiple attacks and making multiple attacks with the force in a single post. which is why i suggesting the one force power per post per rule. if you want to use the force for your "right to defend" then so be it, but don't expect to follow it up with anything. anyway. Move the site, fine. remove right to defend, fine. overhaul a perfectly good system for no real reason, totally not fine. Especially if we're going to overhaul this perfectly good system into a fake system where the "stats" that we have no longer mean much of anything. Completely changing everything isn't going to solve any problems. An admin drawing a line in the sand saying what is and isn't acceptable, according to the rules (on a case by case basis), will solve a heck of a lot. (various rooster calling and utterances of "you are the Pan" may follow). If yall don't want to be a jackass and say no to some newbie then please remember that i'm totally willing to be a jackass at the drop of the hat, regardless if it's about the rules or not.
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Post by Drake on Feb 22, 2010 21:25:49 GMT -5
Coo coo co coo coo Rufio Rufio Rufio...sorry I had to
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Post by Yuki Uramachi on Feb 22, 2010 22:41:07 GMT -5
We did not throw a shit fit because you called it god modding we threw a fit because you took almost a month to post your retaliation and we were not allowed to post until you did. And I never said that Zilfer doesn't god mod, what I was saying is you do it too. I'm not sure if I have god modded, but I'm sure that someone like Mik may call me still using the earth force form, god modding, even though i was told by Zilfer that you said I could, and I only continued using it when i got the okay. Anyways idk about the right to defend rule, that doesn't bother me too much except it basically takes away a persons right to, well defend against an attack. I'm sure this rule is about how if someone says they HIT you with a force push, that now you cannot say that you dodged it or tried to dodge it. Anyways, I just like the stats and I like the exp the way they are and when you change the stat system it's always like a "get over it or leave type of deal".
This is kind of like a MMORPG except you can't see your character running around and leveling up. And in those games they don't really change the stat system and the way you level up and all that. All they really change is newer items and better graphics and that stuff that doesn't really affect your characters.
Anyways, that is my input, I wasn't going to add any because, just like it is now, it doesn't get me anywhere because in past cases you either ignore me, or in this case you chew me out, but Zilfer said I had to, so eh.... :/
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Post by Moonfire on Feb 22, 2010 22:48:33 GMT -5
Anyways, that is my input, I wasn't going to add any because, just like it is now, it doesn't get me anywhere because in past cases you either ignore me, or in this case you chew me out, but Zilfer said I had to, so eh.... :/ Whats your definition of being chewed out? He explained himself and his side, last I checked that he wasn't being rude or hostile in anyway. If he was ignoring you, he wouldn't have acknowledged your feelings either.
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